Interesting questions re: pistol grip shotguns

There have been pistols manufactured such as the Thunder Five .410 revolver which has a 2" barrel.

Good question, but aren't smoothebore pistols considered AOWs? Which would make this already subject to NFA?

I am still trying to figure out how adding a vertical for-grip to a pistol makes it an AOW since the definition of AOW specifically exempts rifled pistol barrels??

I have some more to add about this. I'm not sure ATF considers a pistol grip shotgun to be a pistol. I think they consider it a shotgun. The ATF's NFA Handbook suggests it would be a shotgun.

I wanted to add the definition of AOW to my last post for reference:

Any other weapon. Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

The BATFE seems to have taken the position that a (for example) a factory original Mossberg Cruiser with an 18" barrel can be cut down and it becomes an AOW ($5 transfer) tax. Whereas a factory original Mossberg 500 that left the factory with a shoulder stock is and will always be a shotgun. Even if the subsequent owner buys a pistol grip and puts on it, cutting it down still results in a short-barreled shotgun with a $200 transfer tax.

It is unclear (to me at least) what the status of an uncut Cruiser would be if the owner put a shoulder stock on it, even for a few seconds, and then took the shoulder stock off and replaced it with the original pistol grip. Is it forever thereafter a shotgun?

As usual with the BATFE and the federal firearms statutes, it boils down to arguments over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. There are other issues with AOWs. Pistols with forward vertical handgrips, for example. The BATFE considers them to be AOWs, notwithstanding the fact that they have lost every reported case in which the issue has been tried.

for those who do not follow the funny ruling from the ATF tech. branck, the found that a shoe string with a loop tied in each end was a machine gun. they returned the shoe string to the inquirer with the loops cut off. I think that ruling laster about 6 months before they reversed it to avoid the continued jokes from the NFA community. If you want to really good fun look at the Thompson Contender ruling. ATF continues to assert that the ruling appies to only that specific gun and not other similar guns.

Don't get me wrong... NFA branch in Martinsburg WV are great people and I do not have an issue with AFT - BUT some funny interpritations come out of somewhere.

sorry I hit post instead of spell check on that last one...

I feel a little silly commenting on David Hardy's blog about a legal issue 'cause everything I'm about to say you probably already know.

Pistols have to have rifled barrels. If it's too short to be a Title I shotgun under the NFA and has a smooth bore capable of firing a shotgun shell it's an AOW.

The pistol vs. long gun thing is goofy because for years the dealer portion of the 4473 only had pistol and long gun listed on the back and the GCA only allows shoulder fired long guns to be sold to 18 year olds, so, lacking a better option PGO shotguns were logged as pistols. The thing to remember there is that all FFL transfers have to be with somebody that's 21 unless it's a shoulder fired Title I weapon. It's not written to be 18 unless it's a pistol but that's usually how we phrase it. With the addition of an "other" category on the dealer portion of the 4473 things are a little more clear now, especially with things like stripped receivers. Even if you intend to build it into a rifle you still have to be 21 to purchase because it's not, in its current form, a shoulder fired Title I weapon.

I should clarify, and just did in an update, that it looks like they don't consider it a pistol, but nor do they consider it a shotgun either. They require FFLs to put "Pistol Grip Weapon" as its type. The legal effect is the same though, since the interstate requirements and age requirements rest on it being neither a rifle or a shotgun.

Of course, all this is prefectly "reasonable" and so clear that anyone can determine the category into which the gun they own falls.

This is what you get when you allow the federal government to function outside of their Constitutional authority.

If it was anyone but Len Savage in the thread I would have paid attention. Savage does the firearm community much more harm than good.

I don't think Len Savage posts here, but he is a regular over on the subguns.com NFA board. Feel free to go over there and talk that smack to his "face."

If you want to shorten the 18" smooth bore barrel on a twelve gauge pistol, you have to file a form 1 to make an AOW.

If you get a rifled slug barrel to put on it, you can legally shorten a rifled barrel on a pistol to any length without federal paperwork.

Note: the above is only true if the 12 gauge has never been barreled.

If it came out of the factory with a smoothbore barrel on it, it is a shotgun forever.

If you want to try this at home, order a factory custom weapon with a pistolgrip and a rifled barrel. If these are put on aftermarket, you may be forced to go the SBS route on a form 1.

Since I have not publicly ever spoke of it since sending it weeks ago; FWB, where do you work?

Here is the text for all other who don't work where FWB does:
__________________________________________
Mr. John R. Spencer
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch
244 Needy Rd.
Martinsburg, WV 25405

Dear Mr. Spencer,

I have recently received the November 2009 FFL Newsletter. On page 2 an article titled “Pistol Grips and Shotguns” the article states in part:

“Certain commercially produced firearms do not fall within the definition of a shotgun under the GCA even though they utilize a shotgun shell for ammunition. For example, firearms that come equipped with a pistol grip in place of the buttstock are not shotguns defined by the GCA.”

Furthermore it goes on to state:

“Since it is a firearm “other than a rifle or a shotgun”, the purchaser must be 21 years of age or older.”

Since it is not neither a rifle nor a shotgun; Is it not lawful for it to have a barrel length of less than 18 inches and an overall length of less than 26 inches? And NOT be considered a firearm under the NFA? After all, since they were never shotguns, how could they be “short barreled shotguns”?

The Code of Federal Regulations, specifically 27 CFR, section 479.11 define an NFA firearm to be:

Firearm. (a) A shotgun having a barrel length of less than 18 inches. (b) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel length of less than 18 inches in length.

The business opportunity for my company to start and modify these firearms “other than a rifle or a shotgun” into firearms with a barrel length of less than 18 inches and overall lengths of less than 26 inches without the need for the burdensome NFA legal requirements will certainly improve my business model.

I do understand that due to your revised interpretation of “manufacturing”, Historic Arms LLC must either seek a marking variance or must impress or engrave company information in accordance with the CFR if my company takes this business opportunity to the point of actually making the modifications to the above mentioned firearms.

I feel compelled to help you even further.

Should you choose to classify such a firearm as “Any other Weapon” under CFR 479.11 the firearms mentioned in the ATF article also have smooth bore and do fire a fixed shotgun shell. They are also just as capable of being “concealed on the person” as my proposed modified version would be, after all we are just talking a couple of inches of barrel. Making such a classification would appear most arbitrary and capricious given the facts at hand.

Should you choose to classify such a firearm as a “Destructive Device” under CFR 479.11 the firearms mentioned in the ATF article also have a barrel diameter of greater than one half inch (12 gauge being approximately .69 inches). The Destructive Device definition does exempt shotguns, however since the firearms described in the article are neither rifles nor shotguns... I would remind you, I would NOT be changing bore diameter of the firearm that is neither a rifle nor a shotgun mentioned in the article. Making such a classification would appear most arbitrary and capricious given the facts at hand.

I trust the aforementioned information helps with my inquiry, and the company thanks you for this wonderful business opportunity.

Feel free to contact me if you have any questions.

Respectfully,

Len Savage

I wonder wher the law stands on Thompson Contender pistols. To my knowledge they haven't been deemed as NFA weapons by the BATFE but it seems to me they are technically short barreled rifles.

Anyone notice this? Has this debate been had before?

Letalis Maximus, Esq.,

No smack talk at all, Len Savage has a reputation amoung those of us who work in the NFA field and it is not a good reputation. He has stabbed other dealers and makers in the back on numerous occasions and he would do it to you given the chance.

Jim K:

Opinions vary.

I had a dyslectic moment.

Jim K NOT FWB seems to be in the know on the paperwork I sent the Federal Government.

He seems so angry and offers no proof on besmirching me? Who could that be???

Looks like more rocks being thrown on the side of Needy Rd. to vent off anger needed.....

"Bad reputation"? "Stabbed people in the back?" OK, so you're saying that the guy who took his life and his business in his hands and helped out Albert Kwan, David Olofson, Doug Friesen, etc. "stabbed them in the back"?

The only truly "bad reputation" Len Savage has is with the ATF and their butt-licking familiars in the Class III "community." This is why they've been trying to do an economic Waco on him for the past several years.

There are "back-stabbers" in that mislabeled "community" all right, but most of the shivs have been stuck in Len. You have only to read a copy of Small Arms Review to collect a couple of prominent names in that Brutus crowd. (And that will later be absolutely established with the release of certain court records, trust me. R.A. Bear, ist dat du?)

The ONLY reason Len Savage is still in business despite all of this is that he tells the truth and sticks to the letter of the law. Do you think he'd still be outside the graybar hotel if that were not the case, with the entire weight of of a federal agency bearing down upon him?

Of course, with the recent trend of the agency to intervene in the blogosphere by putting out the party line (see "Zorro" on CUATF), Len's question is quite on point: WHERE DO YOU WORK? And, I might add, whom do you serve, lickspittle?

Mike Vanderboegh

A. Dawson: Re Thompson Center Pistols ...

TC has had a favorable SCOTUS decision concerning their pistols and carbines ... you can do whatever you please with them, provided you do not put a short barrel together on the same receiver as a buttstock.

Currently, the BATFE is pretending that this decision only effects TC firearms, and only TC firearms.

Sooooo.

If a shotgun leaves the factory with just a pistol grip, and the ATF considers that a 'pistol' if left in that condition, AND the owner gets a RIFLED SHOTGUN BARREL, then they can cut that barrel down as far as they want, right?

Just throw away the smoothbore barrel (or sell it) so there is no other barrel but the rifled one.

Hmmmm, 12 inch rifled shotgun.. I mean pistol. I LIKE THAT!

As I stated in a post on another blogsite; The BATFUs are very adept at painting a goose yellow and convincing a judge it’s a duck. If they can stretch their own rules to classify an Airsoft rifle that shoots more than one plastic B-B with a single function of the trigger as a machine gun, their prosecutors can figure a way to put anybody in a federal pen for anything they can dream up.

Personally, I wouldn’t haul out my hacksaw until I saw something in writing from the HMFIC of the BATFU and even then … ?

BATFU doesn’t need a clean-up it needs abolishment.

[W-III]

To quote Patrick Henry; "I smell a rat."

Interesting thread but no one gets to the crux of the matter most common to dealers. My question is if its a shotgun pistol, isn't it illegal? I think so. The Taurus etc are ok since they have rifled bbls. BUt if you stick on an aftermarket pistol grip on say a 1200 win, now you have a smoothbore pistol, the length of the bbl is immaterial I am assuming them to remain 18 inches or longer for the purposes of my question. So the atf is saying it's ok now to make a smoothbore pistol over 50 cal? And are you now manufacturing? Previously this was still considered a shotgun and was legal unless under 26 inches OAL. But now they are calling it a pistol, and I thought smoothbore shotgun pistols were illegal RIGHT??

From my reading of the BATFE laws a firearm constructed of a receiver which has never had a shoulder stock attached to which a pistol grip was attached and a rifled barrel of any length and designed to be fired with one hand is a pistol. Therefore such a firearm in 12GA would be legal. However, since the BATFE has ruled that the Street Sweeper and Striker 12 shotguns are classified as destructive devices (bores over .5 inch) I would bet that the BATFE would also rule such a firearm a destructive device and therefore it would fall under NFA rules. Now, since the .410 is under .50 I'm willing to bet that this combo in .410 would be legal. (a poor man's Taurus Judge?)

A follow on to my previous post. Since the 12ga might be considered a destructive device due to the fact that the bore is greater than .5 inch what if we made the same alterations to a .410 bore? From my understanding this configuration (.410 receiver which has never had a shoulder stock attached nor has ever had a smooth bore barrel attached with a rifled barrel) could be made as short as one pleased. I believe that this is how The Judge in all it's renditions is legal. I'm thinking that the .410 pump with short rifled barrel would be a neat little addition to my collection. Of course I'd check and clear this with the BATFE (in writing) before assembling such a nifty weapon.

So, as I read on this blog, if one owns a Rem 870 that has a factory 20" smooth bore bbl, and factory pistol-grip folding stock assembly, and wants to remove just the POS folding stock and keep the pistol-grip, there is a problem? Would this firearm be reclassified/redifined as a pistol?

I recently received a 1924 R&R Handy Gun from my Grandfather. It was purchased in 1924 and has always been in the family. I have cleaned it up and refinished the wood back to original condition.(I restore antiques professionally) To the best of my knowledge it has never been registered or permitted in anyway. I was told that it was legal because it fell into a group known as "custom made single shot smooth barreled pistol" and there was (at one time an ATF regulation covering such a thing. I have not been able to find anything regarding this regulation. Can anyone advise?