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Storm brewing in Milwaukee
The Wisconsin Attorney General has ruled that open carry is lawful and cannot be charged as disorderly conduct. (I find it amusing that the article claims that open carry is only allowed in two States, when in fact it's OK in the vast majority).
But the Milwaukee police chief issues orders to arrest any open carriers and seize their firearm. (He issues orders to his "troops," as he puts it). There are others:
"Milwaukee County Sheriff David Clarke said the memo just muddies things. Police still aren’t clear on what might constitute disorderly conduct, he said.
"How we approach a person with a gun, I can tell you right now, isn’t going to change. As far as a law enforcement person is concerned, you just don’t walk up to a person with a gun and say ’excuse me, sir,"’ Clarke said. "On the ground, give up. Get that gun under control and then we’ll figure out what we got here.""
I find the "down on the ground" interesting. If the person were to be dangerous, he'd of course draw before getting down. So giving such a command implies that the giver thinks the citizen is not dangerous. What then is the purpose, other than to stress that they must prostrate themselves to their superior?
Oh, well. That's what section 1983 is for.
[Update to correct city name]
So nice to live in Tucson, where if a peace officer asks you about your gun ... he probably wants to find out if you'd sell it. Well, not that far, but I once during a minor traffic stop was asked whether I liked my .45 1911 clone, because the officer wanted to get one and didn't know if he should go with a clone or pay extra for a Colt model, and we stood there discussing the virtues of Colt vs. clones. If any non-AZ people drove by, it must have seemed unreal. Officer and civilian passing a .45 back and forth, and then me sticking it in my waistband as we debated its virtues.
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So...what would happen if a bunch of "right minded" folks decided to make a pilgrimage to Milwaulkee?
Not together, mind you, but as individual tourists - all out on the same day in different places in the city, all OC'ing?
Milwaukee > Minneapolis :-)
As always it's the teeny weeny syndrome. Peopoe with tiny penises are always flapping theirs out to prove who's bigger. Just don't flap it out near me cause I might LMAO!
David is absolutley right that the best way to deal with this is to walk up to the person and ask what's going on. But then we need cops who aren't chickens. My father was a cop in the 40s and 50s, I know from the stories what a MAN is. Cops today are NOT men. They are afraid of the people because all too often cops abuse people throwing their teeny weenies around to prove their importance. Truly important people never have the need to prove it.
Tiochfaidh ar la!
A lot of the comments by police and legislators are silly, but hardly surprising. Of course one can't assume that someone carrying a gun is doing so lawfully, any more than one can assume that someone driving a car has a valid driver license and is sober. Police have every bit as much right to arrest or take down someone carrying a gun as they do to arrest or force off the3 road someone driving a car: in the absence of some other evidence of illegal conduct, absolutely none.
"What we've got here"
"walk up to the person and ask what's going on"
WTF??
A guy is standing there, openly carrying. He's browsing through paperbacks at WaldenBooks. Or he's sipping coffee at Starbucks. Or he's strolling down the sidewalk with his dog. Or whatever.
His entire activity is fully lawful.
What reason or right does any law enforcement officer have to approach and ask him for any explanation of any part of his behavior?
If they see a person engaging in completely lawful conduct, their reaction is to slam him to the ground and find out "what we got here"?
I'll tell you what we've got - we've got a guy minding his own business and not violating any laws. Sheesh.
Maybe they need to strip-search him in case he's hiding an ibuprofen in his undies. They can ask for advice on that from the school board people.
Minneapolis or Milwaukee, blog title is confusing.
"From an officer’s safety point of view and a public point of view," he said, "we’re not going to start with the assumption that someone displaying a handgun is doing it lawfully."
I'm thinking that there just might be a civil rights lawyer in WI who's wondering if they can get the City to buy them a new boat based on that statement...
"I'm thinking that there just might be a civil rights lawyer in WI who's wondering if they can get the City to buy them a new boat based on that statement..."
Gee, that didn't take long....straight from your mouth to God's ear
Breaking News: Federal civil rights lawsuit filed against West Milwaukee
Sheesh, one of those hot shot lawyers from GeorgiaCarry.org flies into Milwaukee airport this morning and a couple of hours later there's breaking news!
SNIP
examiner.com — Today civil rights attorney John Monroe filed a federal lawsuit against West Milwaukee and it's police force for gross abuses of power against a man solely because the man was legally carrying a holstered gun. . . .
Thanks for posting this, David. The 1983 lawsuit RJ points out was actually filed before this advisory opinion was issued, and there is at least one other local case that interested observers are expecting to result in another in the next few weeks. I am hoping this stays in the news, as thus far coverage is more than we could have hoped for.
If somebody dressed up as a cop were to draw on me and order me on the ground when I hadn't broken any laws, how do I know he didn't just purchase his outfit at the local police supply or off the internet? I'd find that threatening and if I am carrying a firearm and find my life threatened by an unknown aggressive entity wearing a vest, a double tap to the pelvis could end Mr. Big Shot's "small penis" syndrome and leave him rather unhappy for the rest of his life (if no major vessels were hit and he lived).
If the same officer came up to me warily but in a friendly manner, he'd still be a potential threat but my fight or flight instinct wouldn't get automagically triggered into KILL THREAT NOW mode.
Sounds like this police "chief" is asking his officers to become suicidal in their practices.
"Stand your ground. Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here."...or something...
"Disorderly conduct" is or is not a crime "on a case by case basis?" What the heck? Doesn't a citizen have a right to know in advance what conduct is criminal? It will be interesting to here the Chief explain that to a Federal judge.
And I agree that just OC'ing while browsing books would not be enough to justify a query under Terry.
All that being said, there is no substitute for good sense and being civil to the cops. If they ask a question, give them a polite answer. Works wonders. They have wives & babies to go home to & want to do it in one piece.
SGTDAD
...there is no substitute for good sense and being civil to the cops. If they ask a question, give them a polite answer. Works wonders. They have wives & babies to go home to & want to do it in one piece.
I have many peace officer friends, notice I did not say Law Endorsement Officers, as they are friends because they have a PEACE OFFICER mindset.
If the tactitool dudes and thuggish officers start waving guns around at peacable armed citizens and shouting at them for no good reason then they take their lives into their own hands.
To modify your own words:
There is no substitute for a Peace Officer to exercise good sense and be civil to peacable armed citizens that are not a threat to them. If they ask a question, give them a polite answer. Works wonders.
Anybody else remember this from the recent past?
Person suspected of committing crimes dressed up as a Nawlins LEO WAS A LEO. If a person acts with criminal intent, I have the legal right to shoot them even if they have a badge. It likely wouldn't be a good idea, but it wouldn't be illegal to do so if i was in fear of my life or theft of my property. Theft of my property includes forcibly disarming me without due cause or warrant to do so.
Bad cops not only don't get donuts, they might earn JHPs.
This isn't a police state (yet) and I'll be damned if I let it become one.
Just watch yourself if you do go to Cheeseland to open carry. It's still illegal in or on a vehicle, and in bars, and lots of other places.
In or on a vehicle, the gun has to be unloaded and cased.
But gunning up and down as you get in and out of the car going about your business is a messy, potentially dangerous thing.
Here is the blurb from GeorgiaCarry.Org's website about the suit:
GCO Member Sues Over Arrests for OC in Wisconsin
April 14th, 2009
GCO member Jesus Gonzalez was arrested not once, but twice, for openly carrying a firearm in a state that has no law against unlicensed open carry. Rather than sitting back while his rights are trample, Gonzalez has filed a lawsuit against several police officers and two cities for the illegal arrests. The complaint, filed in federal district court for the Eastern District of Wisconsin, may be viewed here.
The lawsuit was made possible by a generous grant from Jews for the Preservation of Firearm Ownership.
Note that the Chief that made this comment knows that he won't be the one implementing said policy.
I wonder what he would do if his officers up and ignored him, and let open carrying citizens continue on with their activities un-harassed?
>>Get that gun under control
The gun, sitting appropriately in a holster, *IS* under control.
It's just not *their* control, (nor should it be) and that's their fundamental malfunction.
What a bunch of Statist twits, undeserving of the uniform they wear.
Game, Set, Match--> Geek with a .45
HIGHLY suggested reading for any "law enforcement officer" seriously considering following the chief's suggestion:
John Bad Elk vs United States
All that being said, there is no substitute for good sense and being civil to the cops. If they ask a question, give them a polite answer. Works wonders. They have wives & babies to go home to & want to do it in one piece.
Well, it would be mighty nice of the cops to politely ask just why you are carrying your firearm. However, that is not what the MF Chief of Police in Milwaukee has instructed his 'troops' to do! Throw them to the ground and arrest them! This is not polite, by the way.
The best thing to happen to this police chief would be (1) getting successfully sued for lots of money and (2) getting fired. He is a public nuisance.
Oh, by the way, it is my understanding that JPFO is paying the legal fees for Mr. Gonzalez. They should do so, if they have the means, as West Milwaukee is basically next door to JPFO HQ.
All open carriers should remember these two questions:
“Am I being detained?”
If not, walk away. Don’t be rude, don’t try to debate, just walk away.
If so:
“For suspicion of [i]what crime[/i] are you detaining me?”
There is no firearms exception to the rules of a Terry stop. The officer must be able to articulate a specific crime that the citizen in question is committing, has committed, or appeared about to commit for the seizure to be lawful.
Here's some info about the John Bad Elk case.
Actually, my understanding is that even better than Terry v Ohio is JL v Florida, which carves out a specific firearms carry exemption to RAS, i.e. the mere presence of a firearm in a place where it is legal to posess it is not RAS.
Henry Bowman: The cops CAN merely ask questions.
Joe Blow can ask questions.
As long as we have the right to simply ignore such contacts ( as opposed to detentions ), there is no harm or foul.
A cop who is unwilling to ask members of the public mere questions is not able to do his job.
I am a law enforcement officer in a large town in Montana. About every other month or so some "concerned citizen" calls 911 to report someone is open carrying. I cannot tell you how wonderful it is to hear my Sergeant, every time, get on the radio and say "is he pointing it at anybody? if not, we won't be responding."