Vegas police kill CCW permittee for legal conduct

That's one of the most disgusting things I've ever read.

How much more disturbing could a story be than that? Wow. Makes me sick to my stomach.

When the anti-gun groups work to make everyone afraid of guns and people who own them, this is what happens.

That story is very disturbing. Missing video footage? Shot in the back?

COSTCO, and many other businesses (almost any indoor mall for example) often have no-gun policies but don’t post it at the entrances. I have to wonder if that exposes them to legal liability. Their secret no-gun policy likely created the chain of events that led to the shooting, and I hope the family is pursuing that. If the victim had known about the policy he may well have chosen to shop elsewhere and the whole thing would have never happened. If a business doesn’t want lawfully carried guns in their stores I believe they are obligated to make that clear. I do not shop at COSTCO because of their anti-gun policy.

I also dropped my Costco membership when I first heard about their anti-gun corporate policy. If you're a Costco member, this is more than just a matter of policy ... it's a matter of life and death now.

These types of police shootings are becoming more and more common. Reduction in training money, ammunition money, and just a general reduction in the quality of new recruits in the last decade, much of this I attribute to the Police Gun control relationship that started in 1986. The gun control movement told the police they would assist in all training that the NRA used to do, but what they then did was work to reduce training, shutdown ranges and general reduce Police quality.

Now of course we are getting these events. So what is the Gun control movements response, laws like the New York City law to require police to shoot to disarm and not to kill. The movement which has overseen the greatest reduction in firearm skill and control scores in major American city police, now wants the cops required to shoot to wound only.

This is a lesson to police everywhere - the standard "man with a gun" response is unconstitutional and unnecessary most of the time and can end tragically. A holstered gun is entitled to a presumption of legality until proven otherwise, per the constitution and common sense. There is no need for SWAT response and wagons full of police with adrenaline pumping unless and until someone actually draws their firearm or otherwise makes it clear they are disturbing the peace.

"This is a lesson to police everywhere..."
Yup, it sure is. The lesson these badged thugs will take away from this is; shoot 'em all, lie about it like always, get promoted.
I suspect the other gangsters, the ones without badges, have more honor and integrity than these turds.

I'm thinking maybe we need a law that if there is an officer involved in a shooting that nobody from that officer's agency should be allowed to touch any video tapes, and maybe even any evidence at all. Instead call in another agency. If the shooting was local call in the feds, if the shooting was by feds, call in the locals to gather evidence.

One moral from this story is that when cops have guns trained on you, keep your damn hands up. Let the cops disarm you after you're cuffed.

Another moral of this story is concealed carry should always mean to keep the weapon concealed. Police grossly over reacted in this situation but if history is any indication they will get off with no charges of any type. This whole incident does not pass the smell test.

Couldn't the family bring a civil complaint against the PD and get the video, etc. during discovery?

And finally, couldn't they bring a federal complaint against the PD for violation of civil rights?

I think this is tragic, and maybe COSTCO can be sued, but no one is going to make a charge against the cops stick here.

The police arrested him and ordered him to keep his hands up. He reached for his gun ... it doesn't matter what words were coming out of his mouth.

You reach for a gun, and standard police practice all over the US is for police to start shooting until you stop moving.

Now if he was on the ground and not moving after the first shot ... then they may have reason to prosecute.

Yes, we do need to see the video.

The police here arguably destroyed evidence if they seized video of the event and did not preserve it, and therefore are open to charges of obstruction of justice and evidence tampering, both felonies.

The police arrested him and ordered him to keep his hands up. He reached for his gun ... it doesn't matter what words were coming out of his mouth.

You reach for a gun, and standard police practice all over the US is for police to start shooting until you stop moving.

So when you're not holding a weapon and the armed keystone cops simultaneously order you to "get on the ground", "drop your weapon", and "keep your hands up", what's a person to do? I know. Die.

Ken

This is horriffic! I do wish he had not tried to disarm himself though. He might still be alive, but I was not there so I don't really know. The biggest contributing factor was probably three officers simultaniousely issuing conflicting orders...

Ken: safest thing to do is to not move, given those three sets of orders.

Fingering your weapon WILL get you shot.

As I see it, there is plenty of blame to go around.

First and foremost, Costco is at fault for concealing and enforcing their unpublicized firearms policy. I expect the award could easily exceed 8 figures.

The store will be found at fault for making a false report. No crime was in process. Yet, the store apparently reported it as such.

The Los Vegas police department will be found at fault for failing to train their officers regarding the state law they are charged with enforcing. The department will also be found at fault for failing to develop a policy for dealing with concealed weapons reports in the absence of other crimes being committed. Sending the SWAT team is inappropriate. The department will be found at fault for inadequate training of their SWAT team as well.

The dispatcher will be found at fault for failing to inquire if an actual crime was taking place; robbery, assault, etc. If the store did report a robbery then they may be liable for prosecution as well as suit. Since the 911 tapes have conveniently disappeared, I expect the fault is with the dispatching agency.

The officers will be found at fault for killing Mr. Scott. The narrative suggests that no one was in charge. Worse yet, they were shouting conflicting orders. This certainly points to inadequate training. I would even argue the officers were panic-stricken. These officers may avoid prison if they are lucky but their careers in law enforcement are over.

The sudden disappearance of the video & 911 tapes is concealing evidence. Whoever thought of this will be prosecuted for concealing evidence of a crime. The department and the city will pay for this.

Much as it pains me to say this, when faced with conflicting commands, Mr. Scott chose the wrong command to comply with.

The goal in such confrontations is to de-escalate the situation. In the face of conflicting orders, the better response would be to stand still and ask who's in charge. When a commanding officer is identified, suggest another officer handcuff you and take charge of the weapon. Do not lower your hands until all other weapons are pointed away from you or the officer takes your hands to handcuff them. At the worst, you would spend a night in jail. More likely, the police officers would realize they are not dealing with a criminal and ask questions rather than start shooting.

As a former LEO, I can tell you from first hand experience that training makes all the difference. I was one of 3 officers responding to a domestic quarrel. The suspect was obviously drunk and mumbled something to the point officer about taking someone with him then stuck his hand into his coat like he was reaching for a weapon. 3 officers drew their weapons, pointed them at the suspect and loudly commanded, “HALT!” He halted and we halted. Nobody died that night. The damned fool fool didn't have a gun but lived to tell the tale. His mother even thanked us for not shooting him.

One feature of our training was our training officer resurrected an earlier FBI training technique where film clips would be displayed on a paper screen and the trainee would have to shoot or not shoot. This was invaluable in my regard and it needs to be repeated periodically.

Jerry in Detroit; Man, I sure do hope you're right that that's how the deal is going to go down. And in a just world, that's how it would go down. But we've all seen far too many times where real truth and justice doesn't win out in the end. So, I sure as hell wouldn't bet the farm on the outcome that you describe.