Corrupted by watching too many James Cagney movies in his youth
107 year old man killed after shooting it out with a SWAT team. "You dirty rats will never take me alive!"
UPDATE: they used to have a way to deal with standoffs in Tucson, at least over the summer. Cut the electrical power and the water. Pretty soon the guy is inside, 105-110 degrees, no air conditioning, air not moving, and no water. Pretty soon he's down to a choice between drinking from the toilet bowl or surrendering, and chooses the latter, since the jail at least has AC.
Yes, a dangerous and frightening situation, but I have some questions about it:
How does pointing a weapon, even a deadly one, morph into aggravated assault?
When does it take SWAT, gas, and flash bang grenades to negotiate with a 107 year old man, probably mentally ill, probably suffering from dementia?
Since when is CN gas inserted instead of fired?
Since when has a flash-bang grenade become a distraction device?
Since when has firing your weapon and shooting become engaging. Engaging is betrothing and talking. IPSC jargon of a post-IPSC world.
Who is being investigated? The LT on site? The chief of police?
Yes, I would not want anyone injured, least of all victims, bystanders and cops, but when did cops forget how to talk? Or call mental health services? I know they can!
Posted by: Eldon Dickens at September 8, 2013 01:38 PM
Posted by: Test at September 8, 2013 08:24 PM
These actions became so because the cops today are gutless chickens. Every day they are frightened to death it will be their last. Every day they believe in the US vs THEM mentality. When my old man was a cop in the 50s, the vast majority of cops had come out of WW II and were pretty fearless. Dad stood down a gang of 30 with an M1 carbine. The best part is that when he pressed the safety he accidently hit the mag release and had only the one round in the chamber. He continued to bluff them while he fiddled for the mag on the ground. He's alive today and doing well because he had guts.
They should have gone home and let the situation subside. In Dad's day, one cop would have walked up to the door, knocked, and talked to the guy. But gutless people can't manage to do this today.
Also check out Radley Balko's The Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America's Police Forces. Sad part is these guys aren't warriors. They are just another gang. Worse this gang is given a pass to inflict damage with no penalties. The immunities given to cops violate the equal protection clause of the 14th. The Equal protection clause makes no exceptions for governmental agents or for ANY grouping for any reason. Equal protections for ALL persons, no exceptions allowed even if a judge grabbing his crystal balls beneath his black robe claims it is so.
Posted by: fwb at September 9, 2013 08:40 AM
FWB, they tried to talk to him when they first responded to the scene and he responded by shooting at officers. Just because this guy was a hundred and seven doesn't change the fact that getting into a shootout with the police is a good way to get yourself killed. If you play stupid games expect to win stupid prizes.
Posted by: KSGunner at September 9, 2013 10:19 AM
Apparently this was touched off because his daughter wanted him to "move". Maybe this goes to show the length he was willing to go to avoid going to an elder care home. For a man who was 18 in 1924, perhaps we shouldn't blame him for protesting such a move.
Posted by: Mman at September 9, 2013 06:25 PM
FWD: Sir, the cops were hardly gutless or chicken to try to approach an armed and agitated man. My experience is that cops want to help people and do not shoot first; they rarely shoot unless they have to or are ordered to.
I attribute their actions more to their department policy and their leaders' decisions.
Legally, and Mr. Hardy may correct my legal theory, the officers were out of danger at the point they dodged the first shots, which if I remember accurately came through the door. If they evacuated the neighborhood, which is typically done, the danger to the public was minimal. Then the serious talking could begin, guided by a mental health professional.
I believe in the value of life and liberty, even that of a 107 year old man suffering from dementia. The cops were less at risk themselves by backing off and talking. The old guy was going nowhere. In a matter of hours he would probably be too tired and hungry to go on. An assault such as the police made, I suspect, had to be by decision of the incident commander on the basis of dept. policy. Unnecessary risk and action all around, particularly for an incident that started merely with a pointing a weapon, menacing, and threat, at most. Legally, the guy may have been quite within his rights to order the relatives out of his residence, but should have called 911.
Don't bother posting politically motivated insults. Yes, I am a liberal, but a liberal of the Enlightenment sort, after Thomas Jefferson, Theodore Roosevelt, Jack Kennedy and Hubert Humphrey. I am also a registered Republican and am probably more against gun control than the NRA. Oh, yes, I'm NRA life member, too.
And I am also concerned about the militarization of the police. It is unconstitutional.
Posted by: Eldon Dickens at September 9, 2013 07:01 PM